Curiosity won - and So did I...

Quite often I get frustrated with using online trees, particularly those on ancestry.com but I continue to use them for clues. And sometimes you get lucky if there are sources attached, which doesn't happen all that much.

At the time I was checking these trees last week, I already had a record of Dietrich's baptism but decided to click through to see what the record was because it looked like a different source than what I had.

I was surprised to see an image. Other records of baptisms I'd seen on ancestry were like the above but without images. I was a bit disappointed because it appeared to be the same document in my files. But I clicked on through anyway.

The above is a portion of the page. The entry for Joh. Dietrich is 3rd from the bottom. Looking at it closely I noticed that his sponsors were different than the record I had. The copy I already had shows the sponsors to be Dietrich Schadler and wife while the sponsors for Johannes (just above Joh. Dietrich) were Joh. Schwenk and Regina! This is apparently another transcription of the records. But how could I know which is correct?

The other thing I noticed, which I've circled in red in the above screen shot, is the number of images for this record set. Curiosity got the better of me and I started “jumping” through the images a hundred at a time. Image 150 looked like a journal or diary as was image 250. But image 350 displayed baptism records written in German Script! I had landed on baptisms for the year 1758 so started going back 20 pages pages at a time. Image 310 was for August 1751 so back one more page and there in the lower right corner was the entry for Dietrich! How cool is that!!

Above is a portion of image number 309 with the year 1751 at the top of the page. The entry for Dietrich is on the second line. It shows that his parents (in the first column) are Michael Hofmann and Maria Engel. The second column shows Joh: Dietrich born 22 June baptized 21 July. In the third column are the sponsors Dietrich Schädler and wife. No, I don't read German but this was, luckily for me, quite legible. And of course, having the transcriptions helps.

If you have an ancestry account and are logged in you can click on this link to get to the full image. There are two pages per image and Dietrich's entry is at the bottom of the second page.

This is part of a larger collection of “Pennsylvania Church and Town Records, 1708-1985” which ancestry added and which Randy Seaver wrote about in January. Being a little more curious, today I took a look to see what all was in the Montgomery > New Hanover > New Hanover Evangelical Lutheran set. You have to have an ancestry.com account to view the images.

“A List of Baptisms from 1740 to 1825 as they appear in the records of the congregation. New Hanover Lutheran” begins with Image 1.

A Diary or Journal begins with Image 141 which is dated 1865 Cheltanham, Montgomery Co. Pa. I didn't take the time to determine the writer. It begins in 1865 and goes through 1893. There were names written throughout. The first few lines of the first image: 6th mo 8 oh 1865. Our wedding day, were married at Germantown Meeting. A warm tho. pleasant day. A good many friends to dinner, more to tea, about 50 beside our family. Our bridesmaids and groomsmen all went home with us and spent the night. They were Enos Laikin and Mary Ann Imes, William Taylor and Mary A. Ogborn, Morris Ogborn & Susan Leattergood.

Miscellaneous Documents starting with Image 267: Permission to microfilm, then documents relating to the incorporation of the German Lutheran Congregation. Some documents in German Script, later ones in English.

Baptism Records in German Script begin with image 280. They start in 1744 and continue through 1878. Marriages begin with image 683 and go from 1809- 1882.

Deaths start with Image 721. The year 1886 is on the first image and 1884 on the last of 10 images so they aren't in any kind of order.

There's a bit of the history of the congregation, lists of Members and Communicants 1855-1919, Baptisms of Infants 1885-1912, Marriages 1887-1912, Burials 1886-1913 with a notation on the last page that there were “500 funerals at New Hanover to date”, more Communicants 1906-1921.

There are 20 images of German Script dated from 1744-1765 appearing to be congregation history and old records as well as several pages of signatures (in German) dated 1765-1790. And finally, Miscellaneous Records in German Script 1766-1796 (marriages, lists of trustees).

It's truly amazing the various types of records found in this data set. Most of them are of no use to me since my ancestors were gone from Pennsylvania by the late 1790s but what I found there (the baptism record of Dietrich Hoffman) is absolutely fantastic!

Published under a Creative Commons License.
Becky Wiseman, "Curiosity won - and So did I," Kinexxions, posted April 12, 2012 (http://kinexxions.blogspot.com/2012/04/curiosity-won-and-so-did-i.html : accessed [access date])

Questioning the Status Quo :: Oh, Maria!

While most of the Genealogy World (and apparently many “ordinary folk” as well) here in the States were all excited about the release of the 1940 census last week, I was consumed with puzzling through some information that Nick, another Hoffman descendant, had sent me – in fact, I spent two full days at the Allen County Public Library in Fort Wayne gathering more information!

Referring to the title of this post, “Status quo” literally means “the existing state of affairs” and from indications in nearly every online family tree that I have viewed (over 50 of them on ancestry.com alone), the wife of Michael Hoffman is Maria (or Mary) Engle (or Engel). But in this post I'm going to question that premise...

When I wrote the first post on Michael Hoffman I basically “went along” with all of the other researchers in stating that Michael's wife was Mary Engel. Even going so far as to say “I find it fascinating that, apparently, Mary's maiden name was usually included in records giving her name, at least that is the case with some of the baptism records and with Michael's estate.”

After all, her name was given as Maria (Engel) in the baptism records of two of their children in “Trinity Lutheran Church - Reading, Pennsylvania: An alphabetized compilation of baptisms, marriages, and deaths from 1751-1904” prepared by Jacqueline B. Nein & Gail H. Hesser, 1988. (As usual, double-click on the images to view a larger version.)

The baptismal record of Samuel Hoffman, son of Dietrich, suggested that perhaps Michael's widow had remarried after his death in 1777:

Church record of Zion's or Spiess's Reformed and Lutheran Church, Upper Alsace Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania, 1774-1845. Copied by William J. Hinke, July 1921. Typed April 1944.

page 10: parents: Dietrich Hoffman, Susanna
child: Samuel b. Apr. 6, 1785 bapt. May 29, 1785
sponsor: Frederick Lies & wf. Maria Engel

And in “Berks County Pennsylvania Marriages 1730-1800 volume 1” by Frederic G. Paul and Jeffrey J. Howell (HP Publishing, 1986) I found evidence of that assumption, noting however that the record does not state that both parties were widowed:

v1 59 - 21 Dec 1784 - Friedrich Lies – Exeter, Maria Hofmann

The death of Frederick's first wife was found in Berks County Church Records of the 18th Century” by F. Edward Wright (Family Line Publications, 1993):

Deaths: 1784 – March 27 – Frederick Lies's wife, b. July 13, 1736. [v1 p187: Schwartzwald Reformed Church]

Investigating things a little further while looking for Engel and Hoffman marriages I came across several rather interesting records in “Marriages and Deaths of Montgomery County Pennsylvania 1685-1800” by Charlotte Meldrum (Willow Bend Books, 1999). {Note: My Hoffman contact, Nick, had sent me a scanned page of the marriage record for Joh: Michael Hoffman but the source was not identified, thus the trip to the Allen County Public Library. It should be noted that Berks County was formed in 1752 from parts of Chester, Lancaster, and Philadelphia counties and Montgomery County was created in 1784 from Philadelphia County. I think the area where Michael Hoffman lived was originally part of Philadelphia County.}

Angel, Philip and Schmiedin, Anna Maria, md. November 24, 1748, at New Hanover. [p84 Augustus Evangelical Lutheran Church, Trappe – 3rd entry in image below]

Hofman, Joh: Michael, widower, and Schedlerin, Engel, md. July 2, 1750, in New Hanover township. [p85 Augustus Evangelical Lutheran Church, Trappe - 2nd entry in image below]

At first glance, the names Schmiedin and Schedlerin looked very similar and I thought perhaps that Anna Maria Schmiedin Angel could have been widowed and married Michael Hofman as her second husband. But then, I found the record below and realized that if “Engel Schedlerin” had been a widow, it should have stated that fact in the record. It should also be noted that the “in” at the end of a German surname simply indicates the feminine form of the name, thus Schmiedin and Schedlerin are actually Schmied and Schedler and appear to be two distinct surnames.

Schmied, Walter, widower and Scheidin, Anna Maria, widow, md. August 12, 1750, in Coventry township. [p85 Augustus Evangelical Lutheran Church, Trappe]

Another entry on the same page (5th entry in above image) was interesting because of the Schädler surname, which could be the “real” spelling of Schedler. It should also be noted that, according to documents in his estate file, Michael Hoffman had a daughter “Dorothea Now the Wife of Henry Shedler”.

Schädler, Johan Jürg, widower and Bechtelin, Anna Maria, widow, Jürg, md. August 7, 1750. [p85 Augustus Evangelical Lutheran Church, Trappe]

Another source (shown above) was found for the marriage of Joh: Michael Hoffman and Engel Schedlerin. If possible, it would be rather nice to find the original record, if still available, but two transcriptions of the record seem to indicate that the names are probably correct.

Going back to that marriage record for Joh: Michael Hofman and Engel Schedlerin, I got to thinking that perhaps Engel was a misspelling of Angel and that Angel or Engel was one of Maria's given names. Below are all of the records found for Maria in “Berks County Church Records of the 18th Century” by F. Edward Wright (Family Line Publications, 1993) where she is listed as a parent or sponsor, and assuming that she also married Friederich Lies. Entries are listed by date, and yes, there are quite a few entries, which makes this post really long, but I think they are crucial to my theory regarding her name:

• Maria Barbara Westlie, daughter of Salomon and Maria Elizabeth, b. January 3, 1753 bapt. - - . Sponsors Michael and Anna Maria Hoffman. [v1 p14 - St. Gabriel's Church]
• Michael Close son of Peter and Elisabetha, born October - -, baptized April 11, 176-. Sponsors: Michael Hoffman and wife Maria. [v1. p227 - St. Paul's Church, Amityville, Pa]
• Anna Barbara of Michael Hoffman and Maria Engel, b. October 22, 1765; bapt. November 27, 1765, Sponsors: Georg Schwarz and wife Anna Barbara. [v5 p52 - Trinity Lutheran Church Reading]
• Jacob Fritz son of Joh. Martin and Sarah, born October 2, 1767, baptized February 21, 1768. Sponsors: Michael Hofman and wife Anna Maria. [v1. p229 - St. Paul's Church, Amityville, Pa]
• John Barefoot son of Samuel and Jenny, born May 30, 1768, baptized October 16, 1768. Sponsors: Michael Hoffman and wife Anna Maria. [v1. p230 - St. Paul's Church, Amityville, Pa]
• Johannes of Michael Hoffmann and Maria Engel, b. May 3, 1770; bapt. June 3, 1770. Sponsors: Johannes Koch and Eva. [v5 p71 - Trinity Lutheran Church Reading]

{rwNote: Michael Hoffman died January 6, 1777. Maria Hoffman married Frederick Lies on 21 Dec 1784.}

• Johann Friederich Lies son of Peter and - - , b. Dec 4, 1785, bapt. March 20, 1786. Sponsors: Johann Friederich Lies and wife Maria Angel. [v1 p52- Schwartzwald Reformed Church] {rwNote: I think it is highly unlikely that her maiden name would have been used in a baptismal record, especially given the fact that she was married twice, assuming of course that she was married to both Michael Hoffman and Friederich Lies.}
• Jacob Mueller son of Jacob and - - , b. 8 mos last Thursday, bapt. March 20, 1786. Sponsors: Johann Friederich Lies and wife Maria Angel. [v1 p53 - Schwartzwald Reformed Church]
• Anna Maria Engle daughter of Elisabeth and ---, b. 8 wks old, bapt. June 29, 1787. Sponsor: Anna Maria Engel. [v1 p57 - Schwartzwald Reformed Church] {rwNote: am including this simply for reference because of her name.}
• Anna Maria Schroeder daughter of Engel b. August 9, 1794 bapt. January 18, 1795. Sponsors: Henrich Lies and wife Anna Maria. [v1 p108 - Schwartzwald Reformed Church] {rwNote: is Engel a first name in this record?}
• Maria Elisabeth Hoffman daughter of Christian and - - , b. October 5, 1785, bapt. November 20, - - . Sponsors: Jacob Koch and Maria Angelina Hoffman. [v4 p41 - Zion's or Spiess's Reformed and Lutheran Church] {rwNote: including this record for reference to the name Angelina. At this point, I don't know how or if Maria Angelina Hoffman is related to “my” Hoffman family.}
• Daniel Ganser son of Andrew and - - , b. November 2, 1786, bapt. December 26, - - . Sponsors: Frederick Lies and Anna Maria. [v4 p42 - Zion's or Spiess's Reformed and Lutheran Church]
• Maria Catharine Hoffman daughter of Henry and Susanna, b. July 26, 1790, bapt. July 10, 1791. Sponsors: Frederick Lies and wife Maria. [v4 p44 - Zion's or Spiess's Reformed and Lutheran Church]
• Joh Heinrich Hoffman of Michael Hoffman and Elisabeth, born May 8, 1789, bapt. August 30. Sponsors: Friedfrich [sic] Lies and wife Maria. [v4 p173 – Christ Church on Bieber Creek (Mertz)]

Other than those for Maria, there were few entries for the Angel/Engel surname and even fewer for the Schädler (Schaedler, Schedler) surname. I'll be looking at those records as well as others and attempting to find out more information on the people mentioned.

Baptismal records in “The Lutheran Church in New Hanover (Falckner Swamp) Montgomery County, Penna. by Rev. J. J. Kline, which was published in v20 of The Pennsylvania-German Society Proceedings (Lancaster, Pa, 1911) page 261 provides additional clues to a possible Schädler connection:

{I've rearranged the records according to date of birth...}

• Hofmann, Johannes... Nov. 14, 1748... May 22, 1749... Michael and Anna Maria... Joh. Conrad Lutz and wife {rwNote: This baptism is prior to Michael's marriage to Engel Schederlin, indicating that his first wife was also named Anna Maria. Good grief!}
• Hofmann, Joh. Dietrich... June 22, 1751... July 22, 1751... Michael and Maria Engel... Dietrich Schädler and wife {rwNote: Dietrich Hoffman was the first child born to Michael and his second wife.}
• Hofmann, Anna Maria... May 18, 1752... July 19, 1752... Michael and Anna Maria... Hans Jorg Schaedler and wife
• Hofmann, Johann Michael... May 27, 1753... June 11, 1753... Michael and Maria Engel... Johann Michael Kurtz and wife
• Hofman, Eva... Sept. 27, 1761... Nov. 22, 1762... Michael and Anna Maria... George Schaedler and wife

If you've made it this far, I congratulate you!

My premise or theory that questions the status quo regarding the wife of Michael Hoffman is that Maria was born “Anna Maria Engel Schedler” and that the “Engel” referred to in the baptismal records is simply recording her given name. It just does not make sense to me that her maiden name would be given in those "Lies" records, particularly if she was married twice. Of course, this theory hinges on the two marriage records noted near the beginning of this terribly long post and assuming that she is the same person in both records: Engel Schedler(in) marries Joh: Michael Hoffman and after his death marries Friederick Lies. Of course, there is always the chance that there was more than one Michael Hoffman in this area. I haven't done enough investigation yet to determine that possibility.

Oh, and if my theory pans out, I think it also confirms the misgivings mentioned in this post on the Heirs of Michael:

“Now, I don't know about you, but that's quite a span of years with the oldest child being 36 and the youngest being only 4 years old. Call me skeptical, but I'm thinking that Maria Engel may have been Michael's second wife. If she is the mother of all 13 children, she would likely be into her 50s when she had the last child. Possible, I suppose. But I don't have a date of birth or place of birth for Maria or Michael.”

What do you think? I would love to hear your thoughts, dear readers, and especially anyone researching this Hoffman family (Michael or Dietrich or their children). Please leave a comment or send me an email at kinexxions “at” gmail “dot” com. At the very least, this information should give us all researching this family something to think about...

And one last little thing... my contact Nick also provided me with information about the possible parents of Michael Hoffman, so you haven't read the last about this family just yet! I can't thank him enough for sending me the information and copies of documents. Thanks, Nick!

For previous posts see the Hoffman-Huffman Family :: Index to Posts

Published under a Creative Commons License.
Becky Wiseman, "Questioning the Status Quo :: Oh, Maria!," Kinexxions, posted April 10, 2012 (http://kinexxions.blogspot.com/2012/04/questioning-status-quo-oh-maria.html : accessed [access date])